Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:40 PM
Author: rangerlaw
Go to beta.mormon.org and click on the 'ask a question' sectionthe person that posts the most awesome chat transcript will win a prize (I promise)!!!!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049823) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:50 PM
Author: NYLS 2L
lol, i will try doing this with live westlaw chat and see who gets better answers.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049883) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:59 PM
Author: :;;;;.............,.,.,.,..,,,,,,,,,,,..,.,.,.,.,. ( <Party of Five>)
I tried it and some bitch named Steve sent me the same link 20 times. Unhelpful and totally lame; they probably have to juggle several people at once, and they handle questions by posting links.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049938) |
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Date: May 5th, 2007 12:15 PM
Author: Niggers Have a 180 on the COCKSAT
Subject: Settled for the direct approach
Sorry for posting up here, but this conversation really wasn't worth scrolling all the down for. It's not particularly funny, but I still thought it should be posted.Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Close this window
Bradley:
Hi, how may I help you?
Morgan:
Hello Bradley. I want to say up front and politely that I am an atheist. I'm coming to this site because a lot of people from your church have been visiting me. While I respect your right to freely practice your religion, I have to wonder why you are so eager to promote it. I hope we can have a civil discussion about that.
Bradley:
Of course.
Morgan:
Now this is a question that I hope you can answer for me. I have asked it of missionaries a few times. Some did not seem to know; others simply recommended I read your book. I'll let you know in advance that I have read your book, just like I've read many other religious texts (The Bible, Koran, Vedas, etc.).
Morgan:
There is a lot in the Book of Mormon which, to say the least, does not have scientific proof. We can debate endlessly about whether or not corrobative evidence can be found and how exactly we should interpret it, but quite frankly, there is no record (apart from the Book) which states unambiguously that Jesus Christ visited anyone in the Americas.
Morgan:
To put it simply, a lot of the claims in the Book of Mormon rely on faith. I think most of your (honest) members would admit that, seeing as the usual advice is to pray upon the words in the Book. Can we establish that, in some degree, faith is a necessary component of your religion?
Bradley:
You are correct, it is an essential part of our faith. We believe that just as Christ taught, physical evidence isn't enough. We must have faith and we believe God will manifest to us truth through his spirit.
Morgan:
All right. So far, so good. Now I suppose my next question is this: Why have faith? Reason has done a lot for humanity. We have placed people on the moon because of scientific advances. We have evolved into a liberal democracy because of political doctrines established by Enlightenment thinkers.
Morgan:
On the other hand, when people suspend rationality in favor of God's truth (or what they see as their God's truth), we have some awful travesties. The 9/11 hijackers, for example, had abundant faith. So did many of the Crusaders who slaughtered Jews and Muslims across Europe. Many of the persecutors of your fellow Mormons also had faith.
Morgan:
There is the classic accounts, for example, of Abraham and Japheth being commanded to sacrifice their children because of God's commands. People often say that religion provides them with a moral center. But I suppose my question is, if everything is ultimately decided on faith, not reason, how do you keep a moral center? If you are absolutely convinced that you and only you have the truth, what stops you from advancing God's objectives at the expense of your fellow human beings?
Bradley:
Let me push you some scriptures that might help you understand how we view God's dealings with humanity.
Bradley:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search=Moroni+7%3A12-13&do=Search
(This URL is opening in the browser window that you opened the chat window from.)
Morgan:
I'm very grateful, thanks.
Morgan:
Yes, but in sense, isn't this particular passage something of a tautology? That God is by definition good and the devil is by definition evil. I was wanting to know how you distinguish between good and evil, especially when people claim to advance certain principles in God's name.
Bradley:
It seems like you have many questions. The best thing I could say is to browse mormon.org, lds.org and josephsmith.net
Bradley:
Our purpose here on this chat site to help people understand our basic beliefs and how they can know if they are true.
Morgan:
Well, actually it was only one essential question: How do you know your faith is more valid than anyone else's?
Morgan:
A lot of people have faith in very contradictory theologies. They cannot all be right. How do I distinguish between your assurance and the assurance of, say, a very devout Muslim or a very devout Jew or even another devout Christian?
Bradley:
It all comes down to personal action. I've prayed and I know that God has answered my prayers. We don't expect people to have blind faith, so we aske them to do the same. Ask God for yourself. That's all he asks. Here's a page that might help.
Bradley:
http://beta.mormon.org/mormonorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=b4f4055b23710110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=cb046db0580a1110VgnVCM100000176f620a____
(This URL is opening in the browser window that you opened the chat window from.)
Morgan:
All right, that's fair enough. But what about a devout Jew who prays and receives the answer from God (as he sees it) that Judaism is the one and only true religion? Is that person wrong? Did God deceive them?
Morgan:
Especially on a question of such magnitude.
Bradley:
Our simple invitation is to invite all people to pray for themselves, and we trust God that he will guide those who seek Him to His truth. Sometimes that guidance comes step by step, but I trust that those who seek God will find him.
Morgan:
But isn't the very act of prayer a tacit admission that this is all correct?
Bradley:
Our simple purpose here is to invite people to ask those questions for themselves.
Morgan:
I understand that, and I'm very glad you're willing to discuss this.
Bradley:
No, but it is an expression of desire to know if it is correct. You can open a book to try to learn about a theory without automatically believing the contents. Prayer can be used as a source to find truth, not simply to confirm belief.
Bradley:
Have you ever prayed before?
Morgan:
I remember a long time ago, when I was younger, that I prayed very much to God for some inkling of his presence. I can relate to the religious experience as I grew up in a very devout home. But when I was 12, a little younger than Joseph Smith, I prayed and suddenly, it hit me like a ton of bricks that no one really was listening. That was when I stopped praying.
Bradley:
What was it that hit you like a ton of bricks?
Morgan:
That no one was listening to me, that I was really conducting some sort of psychotherapy session, a talking cure of sorts. That I was replacing my fallible parents with the emotionally comforting but intellectually indefensible idea of a perfect, all-powerful Parent.
Morgan:
If my soul was in some mortal danger at that point, why, I sometimes wonder, didn't God intervene? Why couldn't he have offered me a revelation that would have overturned my doubts? And then it occured to me that if God exists, then there was a great problem in that most of the people seeking Him had arrived at the wrong conclusion.
Morgan:
If there is only one true religion out there--let's suppose for a moment that it is yours--then why would God not immediately give everyone the assurance that, yes, this is the truth? Why would he allow sincere people to go to other, presumably false religions?
Morgan:
I doubt it is for lack of sincerity. I know many people who sincerely persist in all manner of contradictory faiths.
Bradley:
There's something that we all most do as well. God doesn't provide us with miracles to give us faith, but rather, miracles confirm our faith. They come by faith, and trust in God. Here's a verse that might help.
Bradley:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=1+Kings19%3A11-12&help=&wo=checked&search=1+Kings+19%3A11-12&do=Search&iw=scriptures&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=checked
(This URL is opening in the browser window that you opened the chat window from.)
Morgan:
Yes, but that's not precisely the case. In Judges 6, for example, Gideon gets three miracles to assure him that God and not a hallucination is calling him. Given God's apparent willingness to show off, why is He silent on sincere requests for the miraculous? Why, for example, can't the Book of Mormon levitate or turn into gold plates again to confirm faith?
Bradley:
Morgan, I have to go, but the single most important thing you can possibly do is to seek God's guidance. I invite you to meet with the missionaries to investigate this topic.
Morgan:
I'm open to further discussion on those points. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.
Bradley:
Great! Here's the page to do that.
Bradley:
http://beta.mormon.org/mormonorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=57b29c3a68a50110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD&locale=0
(This URL is opening in the browser window that you opened the chat window from.)
Bradley:
Take care!
(guy who forgot the first half of "fight or flight")
http://www.freezepage.com/1593388397AHPUXHJQHV
http://www.freezepage.com/1593390257NVDHOWEYFH
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8065180) |
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Date: May 6th, 2007 10:53 PM
Author: Hooked on Eugenics
It's obvious these Mormons are not up for direct serious talks about their faith. This post justifies everything that follows.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8074503) |
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Date: May 7th, 2007 4:49 AM
Author: Niggers Have a 180 on the COCKSAT
Yes, the level of bullshit they spew is ridiculous, even if religious nutjobs.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8076542) |
Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:53 PM
Author: lawschooldesire
xoxo should be able to take down this feature in 72 hours
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049900) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:56 PM
Author: done and done (facts are fascist)
where have you been?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049922) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 4:58 PM
Author: lawschooldesire
lurking....although I post every now and then
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049930) |
Date: May 2nd, 2007 5:02 PM
Author: lawschooldesire
Hello Richard, how may we help you?Richard: Hi, I have a few questions for you about something I saw on PBS last night.
Richard: There was a documentary about your church.
Steve: I actually viewed this documentary also, I hope I can answer your questions.
Richard: First off, did Jacob Smith really write the Book of Mormon with a rock in a hat?
Richard: Sounds utterly bizarre
Steve: Yes, Joseph Smith received help and revelation in translating the Book of Mormon from what was called the Seer Stone. Joseph Smith used this stone in a hat, in order to see it in the dark.
Richard: The Mormon apologist, Daniel Peterson, in the documentary said that "most" of the Book of Mormon was written with the rock in the hat and that the plates weren't even around when he was doing it. Is this right?
Steve: That is false. Joseph had the plates the entire time. Actually, Daniel Peterson is not a Mormon.
Richard: PBS says he is:
Richard: http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/
Richard: Daniel Peterson Daniel Peterson is a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, a member of the university's Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, and a contributor to the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research and the Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-day Saints. He is the author of numerous articles and books on Mormon history and doctrine.
Richard: Sorry--that should have had quotes around it. It is from the PBS site.
Steve: I'm sorry, Daniel Peterson is a member, I was mistaken for someone else quoted on the documentary.
Richard: So, my question still stands, why did he even need the plates if he had this magical rock in a hat?
Richard: Oh, and is there a museum that I can go to so I can check these plates out myself?
Steve: I think it is because the Lord wanted him to translate these ancient scriptures and give them to the world. The Lord could have just showed Joseph Smith what is contained in the Golden Plates, but instead He had Joseph translate them.
Richard: what do you mean "translate"? He was looking at a rock, right?
Steve: Joseph had the power to receive revelation, which means to speak with Christ directly. Through this power the Lord restored many truths. Translating the Book of Mormon brought forth many of these truths. It wasn't just given to Joseph...
Richard: So are the plates in a museum somewhere?
Steve: He had to work to translate it. There are several accounts where he worked very hard to understand the translations. Just like translating any language, it takes skill, knowledge, and also in Joseph's situation spiritual guidance.
Steve: The plates were given back to the angel Moroni after Joseph was done translating.
Richard: It takes skill and knowledge to look into a hat? I must be missing something here.
Richard: It all sounds extremely fishy to me, to say the least.
Steve: Richard, have you read the Book of Mormon?
Richard: Nope--just saw the documentary.
Steve: The great thing about it all, is that you don't have to believe PBS, me, or any other theologist. The Lord will answer your prayers and tell you what is true.
Steve: Do you believe God will answer your prayers?
Richard: Don't believe in God--I'm an atheist.
Steve: Do you believe in a higher power at all?
Steve: A creator?
Richard: Nope.
Richard: I also have a question about Smith's polygamy. Did he really marry over 30 women in secret?
Steve: Have you ever asked yourself about why humans are here on earth.
Richard: Some of them teenagers and some of them married to other men at the time?
Richard: Ever hear of evolution?
Steve: There are many rumors being spread about polygamy in the earlier years of the Church. I know that it was a commandment of God given to specific people.
Richard: The documentary said that 20-30 percent of Mormons participated.
Steve: I do not know the numbers, so I cannot expound on that.
Steve: To me, that sounds about right.
Richard: Jacob Smith had over 30, Brigam Young had over 50, with 57 children!
Richard: And poking around online (I admit that it's fascinating) I read that you still believe that polygamy will be practiced in the next life.
Richard: And that two of your apostles are eternally "sealed" to two different women!
Richard: Can men really do this in your church, even today?!?
Steve: I have actually only heard about polygamy in the next life. I do not know it as stated doctrine of the Church. I have never heard about the second statement.
Richard: Is there someone there that knows enough to answer my questions?
Steve: With these two apostles, I think they are referring to how their first wife died, and they remarried. "Sealed" is a word used in our church to signify a marriage relationship. Just like anyone else, yes they may remarry other women...
Steve: But you may only have one spouse in our church, unless of course that spouse dies and you remarry.
Richard: But I read that men can be sealed to many different women if the women have not been married in the temple before. This means that in the next life they will be living in a polygamous relationship.
Richard: but that women cannot be sealed to more than one man.
Richard: did I get that right--it's all very bizarre
Richard: And I still can't get my mind around Jacob Smith marrying other men's wives. Guy must have been drunk on his own power.
Steve: It does sound like you are very interested in our faith. I would like to invite you to read the Book of Mormon and find out for yourselves whether it is ture.
Richard: After watching the documentary, there's no way I could take it seriously.
Richard: Jacob Smith comes across as a total scam artist.
Steve: Richard, this site is meant for those who are interested in learning more about our religion. We help these people to contact our representatives and learn from the true source more about The Restoration.
Richard: Aren't you a representative?
Steve: Yes, and our representatives are everywhere throughout the world. They would love to visit with you and give you a free Book of Mormon so that you may find out for yourself the validity of our message.
Richard: Anyone there have answers about Smith marrying other men's wives?
Richard: Not interested in a visit--just have some questions about the PBS show.
Steve: I am sorry Richard, this website is not for the purposes I think you would wish it to be. I will refer you to further search www.mormon.org in order to find out more about the Church from a valid source.
Richard: ???
Richard: Isn't the purpose to answer people's questions?
Richard: Or is the purpose to convert people to your church?
Steve: Our representatives we can send to you may further expound on your questions.
Richard: If it's to convert, you should really put that right on the chat explanation.
Steve: Our job is to let you know about the Restoration. It is your choice to convert or not.
Richard: Guess I'll just surf around for more answers--doesn't look like you're interested. Thanks for your time. Later.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049951) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 5:05 PM
Author: fulano
Richard: Is there someone there that knows enough to answer my questions?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049975) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 5:06 PM
Author: done and done (facts are fascist)
you people are evil
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8049978) |
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Date: May 5th, 2007 12:18 PM
Author: @323##322
tyty
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8065192) |
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 5:11 PM
Author: there\'s a wocket in my pocket
incredibly hilarious
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8050015) |
It will take me 1 hour each way on a ferry. I think I should get there at 4pm to avoid the 100 degree heat.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4577801&forum_id=2#40556403)
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Date: May 2nd, 2007 5:15 PM
Author: rangerlaw
I like the Jacob Smith part...hilarious!!!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=625312&forum_id=2#8050023) |
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